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Thematic Links Lion Doesn't Know What They're For

How is SoftwareBazaar Different than a HOWTO Collection?

already been implemented

I suspect a lot of the things people want to do have already been programmed. Therefore, many of the “projects” here will end up being a half-page of HOWTO download and set up the appropriate software. So how will SoftwareBazaar? be different than a HOWTO collection ?


a half-page of HOWTO download and set up

I think such a half-page document on using well-known and well-debugged and well-documented software is far superior than just giving someone a custom executable. While a custom executable may technically do exactly what was wanted, it probably can’t do anything else, and since there’s only 1 user, it is likely to be poorly-debugged and poorly-documented.


"... arguing against the use of custom-built software in favor of off-the-shelf products."

If you want a few octagonal picture frames, would you rather someone give you (free!) a big, complicated, machine that only makes octagonal picture frames, or teach you how to use the tools you already have to make those frames?



By 2007, I want to have at least some projects run by the street performer protocol – everyone who wants some piece of software (and doesn’t mind it being released open-source) pledges a little cash, then the first programmer to implement it sends it to all those people (with the appropriate licensing disclaimers) and scoops up the cash. I don’t think this wiki software is really set up for that sort of thing yet, but perhaps you could help us get there.

I want it to be easy for people to implement a partial solution, and feel comfortable with releasing that, helping people immediately, and allowing others to help adding pieces.

I want newbie programmers to learn what good code looks like, and how to package it up with good documentation, and good ways of managing projects, dealing with maintenance requests, etc.

I want expert programmers to be able to write code related to what they are interested in today, and have people recognize and appreciate their well-written code, and offload user-interface testing and documentation to people that are more excited about doing that sort of thing.

I want people who know a thing or two about programming to be able to break down requests by people who know nothing about it, note things that are clearly impossible, and suggest appropriate techniques (or even better, already-written software) to get started tackling some project.

I want people to be able to pop in a quick improvement to some piece of software, and others to immediately be able to used the improved code.

I want a place where people can talk about some particular piece of open-source software, track bugs, track maintenance requests, discuss various ways of implementing features, etc.

OK, I’ve rambled on long enough. Please condense. – DavidCary

I think the software bazaar is a great idea. However, considering the amount of (fre software) stuff that already exists, I think it’d be more about categorizing and linking than actually asking for code.

For example, say I want a nice tool to draw some Pixel Art. I could come here and say, “hey, I’m looking for something to draw PixelArt?”. Then go search through SourceForge? or Google or FreshMeat? to see what I can find. If I find some interesting stuff, I can put the links here, and say if it satisfies me. If I don’t find anything satisfying, I can decide to code it myself, and say so here too. And maybe later on these kind of notes could be refactored with those of other people writing plugins for the GIMP, etc.

Now, I’m mainly interested in Free Games, and that’s certainly somewhere where a software bazaar would be useful. There are tons of open source half-finished game engines. Or finished game engines that aren’t famous because nobody made a good game with them. Those kind of things (game engines, game-building tools) could be categorized here, or on a SoftwareBazaar? on the free games wiki. Or at least there could be a page saying “this kind of stuff already exists in dozens of versions on the net ! You’ll be much more useful by trying to reuse them and commenting / documenting / classifying them too, then by trying to build your own stuff.”

At least, that’s how I see things.

– EmileKroeger?

Could this Software Bazaar deal with some of the issues discussed on and ?

Ways I am seeing this:

– LionKimbro?

futurist analysis – interesting. I’m not sure what you intended by that, but it reminded me that I want this to be a place where people learn about all aspects of programming, including time estimation. I sort of expected a “Foresight Exchange” style game of estimating exactly when certain pieces of software would become available. Some people would play the game just for the fun of it, learning more about time-estimation – they wouldn’t necessarily need to know how to program. Programmers would use the game for 2 reasons: (a) for programs they already intended to write, they could “bid” on far-distant dates, so that if the program turned out much harder than they had planned, then at least they would win points in the game. (b) for programmers looking for something interesting to write, they could look for programs that seemed far simpler than the distant dates the “market consensus” seems to indicate, buy up lots of of bids on very near dates, then write the code to make it come true. – DavidCary

Moments ago, I stumbled across "Live expert programming advice."

It seems similar in some ways to what I had imagined this Software Bazaar.

(stuff to move elsewhere)

For some more in depth information on the software used on your wiki, see

To see a list of the other wikis on this site, check the Main:Status page.

Clicking on the days in the SideBar calendar will allow you to create wiki pages for them.

If some other wiki is closely related to the software-bazaar-wiki, please add it to the WikiNode.

I suspect that if a wiki is listed on any of WikiNode, InterMap, NearMap, it should probably be listed on all of them. (NearMap lets us simply name a page – such as SiteMap? – and clicking on that name sends us to the “most local” wiki that has a page with that name. InterMap lets us use abbreviations like Community:SiteMap rather than spell out the full URI, when we want to specify a particular page on a particular wiki, when there’s more than one wiki that has a page with that name.).

"How to Make Wealth" by Paul Graham 2004

Which of his suggestions should we implement first on the Software Bazaar?

Lion Kimbro

themes: this wiki, structure, dilemma of communitywiki


I’ve been looking through the wiki, trying to figure out, “What to do here?” No clear answer ever came to me.

The vision is vast and huge, and it seems more to me like a society, (in vision,) rather than any single thing.

Fortunately for us, I believe in the society that you envision, and the attendant projects of the society, so I’m happy to collaborate here.

That said, I have one thing that I think is “needed” here, which is– a little more structure. A little bit of reworking. This will be a good opportunity for me to try out some CommunityWiki:BeginnersReworking?..!

Here’s a dilemma that strikes me: How to decide when to post to CommunityWiki?, and how to decide when to post to SoftwareBazaar?? I have often wished for CommunityWiki? to support raising RecentChanges items that are actually linked to elsewhere. (Caution: Spammers…) This was part of the motive for the CommunityWiki:GroupServer? idea.

The gravitational pull of CommunityWiki? is very strong, … HelmutLeitner? would call CommunityWiki? a “center,” I think. The effort is to turn this into a center. A center for what? For the software activity vision you had, I believe; For the society that we dream of. To be honest, I’m not quite sure what to do about it. I think that there are hard CommunityWiki:HiveMind? questions at work here, that delve into the fundamentals. This is a recurring question.


themes: our people, our vision

Perhaps one of the most important things to do might be:

If you organize this project, I will perform research for it. I expect to be credited for the research.

Actually, I think this may well be the most valuable thing--

There are lots of people who have or share the vision you described. They’re (we’re) a people, but we don’t know each other very well, and we haven’t articulated the vision very well. Just collecting the people and the energy of that story, I think, would be profoundly valuable.

I mean, I run across these people all the time. People want it, but they can’t see their vision clearly, and they can’t see themselves.

How does this idea touch you?

Patrick Anderson

themes: Community, online game communities, modeling reality, installable binary packages, gathering payments, incenting programming work, gnunix, vision

PatrickAnderson? writes:

Lion, I agree with some of what you say about this maybe being larger than it’s title suggests. I have noticed this is a not uncommon trend, and think it has to do with a general lack of community in the physical world. I think people want to connect with others in the real world in a way that is not yet very well facilitated. In my mind this is the same reason you started

About online game communities: I’ve been following and the associated forum at but don’t post much to either.

There is also the fairly new and another I don’t remember right now…

I have also been making a list of games for my own purposes at that is probably only useful in that it contains some older and/or obscure titles that can be harder to find.

I build and review many of these games with many long term goals including making a sort of simulation that models reality more closely - so your character must deal with physical limitations instead of the hocus-pocus you see in so many MMORPGs or SecondLife? etc.

Another goal is to make binary installable packages available for a fee, and to eventually offer them for sale on CD, DVD or even USB sticks.

I think it is most important is to find a way for users to be able to add a “promises to pay” to some sort of electronic POT to incent workers to concentrate on goals they may otherwise have no interest in. This will require an easy way to make many experimental forks - or maybe better, a way to archive patches that users can then mix and match to make their own variations.

An even further off goal is to make that media bootable into a lightweight Free Software distro I call

This all probably just sounds like self promotion, but really I’m just trying to express some of my own ‘vision’ to see how it can be a factor in the super-vision. I hope we can co-operate.

what to do here

I see we need a WeLoveVolunteers? page to tell people how they can help. – DavidCary

promises to pay

(moved “promises to pay” to SoftwareBazaarSoftware)

small improvements

I hope people who request things here – and get exactly what they wanted – will then feel obligated to spend time helping other people.

I’m hoping that people will be able to make “1 hour improvements” or perhaps even “5 minute improvements”; see Community:ReworkingEconomy .

Define external redirect: SoftwareBazaar CommunityWiki SecondLife PixelArt LionKimbro grammar check GroupServer SamRose SourceForge HiveMind SiteMap BrandonCsSanders BeginnersReworking EmileKroeger FreshMeat HelmutLeitner PatrickAnderson WeLoveVolunteers TaoRiver